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this is an email my teacher sent to me.


A chemistry professor in a large college had some exchange
students in the class. One day while the class was in the
lab the Professor noticed one young man (exchange student)
who kept rubbing his back, and stretching as if his back
hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The
student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had
been shot while fighting communists in his native country
who were trying to overthrow his country's government
and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and
asked a strange question. He asked, 'Do you know how to
catch wild pigs?'

The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch
line. The young man said this was no joke. 'You catch
wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and
putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to
come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to
coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place
where they are used to coming. When they get used to the
fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up
another side of the fence. They get used to that and start
to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of
the fence up with a gate in The last side. The pigs, who are
used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to
eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run
around and around inside the fence, but they are caught.
Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used
to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods
for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what
he sees happening to America . The government keeps pushing
us toward socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in
the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit
for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies,
payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs,
etc.. While we continually lose our freedoms -- just a
little at a time.

One should always remember: There is no such thing as a
free lunch! Also, a politician will never provide a service
for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Also, if you see that all of this wonderful government
'help' is a problem confronting the future of
democracy in America , you might want to send this on to
your friends. If you think the free ride is essential to
your way of life then you will probably delete this email,
but God help you when the gate slams shut!

Keep your eyes on the newly elected politicians who are
about to slam the gate on America .
 

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You can call me a pinko, but the last time I checked I could eat some granola and enjoy some social programs without being locked in a pen.
 

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We Canadians are not really that much into corn. The plan would never work.
 

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um then free bacon what ever! lol. everyone thats not cathlic or allergic to pork loves bacon!
 

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Budget Master
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very possible.....
 

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Budget Master
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:rofl:
 

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Just be ready to bug out boys & girls :peep:



Jimbo
 

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Somebody say BACON??

Hey, all I know it that for all this talk about freedom, the US Gov't seems to be restricting it much more then any other free county's gov't. For proof, just go to an airport within the US, then go to an airport outside the US and take a Non-US bound flight...

How's this for freedom...If I get a serious illness I will not have to spend my entire life savings to get well again. This leaves me with the freedom to enjoy my life when I retire. I won't have to work as a greeter at Wal-Mart just to make ends meet because hospitals who more concerned about profit margins then making people better won't be taking money I've worked hard to save over many years.

And if I were already stretched thin, the hospital would not turn me away just because I'm not able to come up with a bunch of cash. I can go to any hospital I want, not only the ones approved by my insurance company...

So that makes me less free then you? I guess we have different ideas of what free really is.

Maybe the propaganda from the people who make profits from the "freedoms" you enjoy needs to be given another thought, rather then just accepted...

P.S. The services we enjoy are not free of charge...Every taxpayer foots the bill...
 

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You can call me a pinko, but the last time I checked I could eat some granola and enjoy some social programs without being locked in a pen.
Compare your freedoms to what our Constitution gives us. Look especially at what you're not allowed to have for a freedom

And also see how much more you pay in taxes than we do to cover those social programs.

But I will admit I'd rather live in Canada than Australia or G.B.

As for the social programs, at one time those services were given by the Christian churches without government aid ... and they should be again.

Budd
 

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Somebody say BACON??

Hey, all I know it that for all this talk about freedom, the US Gov't seems to be restricting it much more then any other free county's gov't. For proof, just go to an airport within the US, then go to an airport outside the US and take a Non-US bound flight...

How's this for freedom...If I get a serious illness I will not have to spend my entire life savings to get well again. This leaves me with the freedom to enjoy my life when I retire. I won't have to work as a greeter at Wal-Mart just to make ends meet because hospitals who more concerned about profit margins then making people better won't be taking money I've worked hard to save over many years.

And if I were already stretched thin, the hospital would not turn me away just because I'm not able to come up with a bunch of cash. I can go to any hospital I want, not only the ones approved by my insurance company...

So that makes me less free then you? I guess we have different ideas of what free really is.

Maybe the propaganda from the people who make profits from the "freedoms" you enjoy needs to be given another thought, rather then just accepted...

P.S. The services we enjoy are not free of charge...Every taxpayer foots the bill...

Your argument on health care has a serious flaw: it assumes there are no laws protecting the indigent in the US. US hospitals, except for some high priced private hospitals, have to take in a certain percentage of indigent cases per year.

I am disabled, on Medicare and I also have, here in Colorado, a program available for people unable to get insurance and that have low paying jobs or are unemployed. It locates medical staff and sercvice providers willing to take a big drop in their charges.

When I had my double bypass surgery in 96, the total bill (the surgery, a failed angioplasty, hospital time in two hospitals, the 8 doctors, 6 anesthesiologists, etc.) came to well over $200,000 US. With the indigent care program, I paid the $4000 bill off in just a few years. FYI, my employer didn't offer any insurance, which is why I was considered "indigent".

How was the care? That was 1996 and I haven't had a heart attack since, I'm in better health than I was at age 40, and the specialists that cared for me were the best in the state. Yes, I still have a dime (US) sized dead spot on my heart, but I hope to find employment next year, if not sooner, and get off Disability.

Now how is that worse than your system where you get whatever quack they assign to you who may not think you're worth more to save than the mongrammed golf ball he lost in the water hazard? (yes, I've had family stationed overseas in G.B. that had to take their children to off-base medical services ... and I've heard the horror stories)

Budd
 

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Well, you were lucky, but there are many people who aren't as lucky as you in the US and die or end up in much worse shape then they need to because your medical system is run for profit.

Now, I can tell you are not well informed about how things work here, so I'll shed a little light for you. It is not a case of what doctor is "assigned" to my case. I am free to see whichever doctor I choose, at which ever hospital I choose. I don't have to go to one hospital or doctor vs. another because my insurance company says so, which IS the case for many Americans.

As for the doctor being a "quack"..."who may not think you're worth more to save than the mongrammed golf ball he lost in the water hazard" that is just ridiculous. In fact, that is more likely in a system run for profit then in our system. Which customer gets treated better in ANY business that is run for profit (Not talking about health care now, just business in general)?

-The one who has a need, but no means to pay for product or services?

or

-The one who has money and need to engage in a transaction with the seller/service provider?

I know the answer is obvious, but I'm trying to point out a fact you seem to not want to see...

If you're not sure about the answer or doubt what I'm getting at, go to the gas station and try to convince them to let you fill up for free. See if you get treated as well as the paying customers. Then go to a restaurant and tell them you don't have any money, but would like a meal. See if you get treated as well as the paying customers there. Business exists for one purpose...profits. Health care that is run as a business is no different.

Think about what you are saying...you spent a couple years paying off a surgery. No you didn't pay the entire cost of the bill, but it did cut into your disposable income. Now, how much better could that money have been used if it had been invested into a retirement fund or savings, instead of paying for some American doctors Monogrammed golf ball and club set?
What if for whatever reason you did not qualify for that situation that helped you out?
Do you think the average working family with 2 kids, a mortgage and a car payment has a spare $200K they can just come up with?
It is obvious in the current economic state that they do not. Do you not think that a 200,000 dollar hospital bill might somewhat negatively effect their quality of life? I'm guessing it would.

You can find an unhappy "camper" in any system, but let me tell you this, I've been to the U.K. and have family there. They have no quams about their health system...in fact, it is one of the things they are quite happy to have. We in Canada are proud to have our system as well. We care for people first, and profits later in our system.
You are trying to somehow tell me that medical attention run for profit first is better?

Your surgery was at a cost of $200,000 and you paid only $4,000? So who covered the other $196,000? You criticize our system while benefiting from a variation on the idea our entire system is based on. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me...

What happens to the people who have the misfortune of becoming ill AFTER the hospital has met it's "quota" or percentage of indigent cases per year? I guess they're just not important enough to receive care? We helped "X" number of people, that's good enough. That's what you are trying to tell me is a better system then what we do here in Canada, and many other places in the world? Help a few unfortunate souls, too bad for the rest...I would expect your bible teaches a different school of thought then that.

Hey, if health care and should be run for profit, because anything less would be "Freedom restricting socialism" then you should be in favor of abolishing the public school/education system as well, not to mention social security, gov't funded old age pension, etc...

Anything less would be hypocrisy...

Here's something else for you to chew on:



How is it that if your medical system is so great, it's rated the same as places like Slovenia, Latvia, Tunisia, Russia, Kuwait...And well below countries such as Canada, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Italy, Germany, Israel, Lebanon, etc...

Source: Quality of Life Index 2009

Later.
 

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Well, you were lucky, but there are many people who aren't as lucky as you in the US and die or end up in much worse shape then they need to because your medical system is run for profit.
Really? The quota is a MINIMUM requirement. Sure, there are cases of patients dying in ER waiting rooms, but our unbiased (coff,coff), highly accurate (choke,choke) un-political (gag,gag) media never mentions any extenuating circumstances, like the ER is stuffed with drug / alcohol OD's, or because it would fail to support their advocacy of socialised medicine.


Now, I can tell you are not well informed about how things work here, so I'll shed a little light for you. It is not a case of what doctor is "assigned" to my case. I am free to see whichever doctor I choose, at which ever hospital I choose. I don't have to go to one hospital or doctor vs. another because my insurance company says so, which IS the case for many Americans.
Then your system is NOT a true socialised system.

As for the doctor being a "quack"..."who may not think you're worth more to save than the mongrammed golf ball he lost in the water hazard" that is just ridiculous. In fact, that is more likely in a system run for profit then in our system. Which customer gets treated better in ANY business that is run for profit (Not talking about health care now, just business in general)?

-The one who has a need, but no means to pay for product or services?

or

-The one who has money and need to engage in a transaction with the seller/service provider?

I know the answer is obvious, but I'm trying to point out a fact you seem to not want to see... .
An answer that I don't want to see? Guess again!

You obviously don't understand free enterprise. If you want to be successful you don't discriminate. How do I know? My first succesful business was at age 14 in 1961. I was making $5/hour when the president of the local bank was making $75 /week ... mowing lawns on the east Colorado prairie.

Since then I had four other businesses, all succesful, but it took them to teach me I prefer to work for others.

Now, that said, you don't know squat about free enterprise, IMHO.

If you're not sure about the answer or doubt what I'm getting at, go to the gas station and try to convince them to let you fill up for free. See if you get treated as well as the paying customers. Then go to a restaurant and tell them you don't have any money, but would like a meal. See if you get treated as well as the paying customers there. Business exists for one purpose...profits. Health care that is run as a business is no different.
That might work in a country where the government doles out to the lazy like your country does and the Liberals want this country to do, but, as you said, this isn't Canada. And to be honest, you're making me like your country less.

Think about what you are saying...you spent a couple years paying off a surgery. No you didn't pay the entire cost of the bill, but it did cut into your disposable income. Now, how much better could that money have been used if it had been invested into a retirement fund or savings, instead of paying for some American doctors Monogrammed golf ball and club set?
What? Now you're saying the doctor doesn't have a right to a set of golf balls?

So what's it to you if I have to work after I'm 65? I enjoy activity and would rather be productive than soitting on my fat butt letting the government pay my way ... correction, letting someone that is trying to make a living pay my way

What if for whatever reason you did not qualify for that situation that helped you out?
Uh, DUH!!! I would have had insurance.


Do you think the average working family with 2 kids, a mortgage and a car payment has a spare $200K they can just come up with?
It is obvious in the current economic state that they do not. Do you not think that a 200,000 dollar hospital bill might somewhat negatively effect their quality of life? I'm guessing it would..
Why do you have to have a car payment? I haven't had one since 1974 when my ex got the 72 Dodge Charger in the divorce and I paid the credit union at work off by refinancing the remainder of the loan.

My current home is a lease / purchase agreement, and my kids are grown, but learned to work for what they wanted at an early age.


You can find an unhappy "camper" in any system, but let me tell you this, I've been to the U.K. and have family there. They have no quams about their health system...in fact, it is one of the things they are quite happy to have. We in Canada are proud to have our system as well. We care for people first, and profits later in our system.
You are trying to somehow tell me that medical attention run for profit first is better?
Yep, a person that has to prove themselves on every job they do will do a better job.

I've met emplyees that came to jobs here in the US from English speaking socialized countries and heard them wonmder why they had to meet higher quality standards.

Your surgery was at a cost of $200,000 and you paid only $4,000? So who covered the other $196,000? You criticize our system while benefiting from a variation on the idea our entire system is based on. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me....
Did you not read where I wrote the medical personel and providers voluntarily took a cut in pay / fees to provide the services?

And what's wrong with taking the responsibility to pay off a debt instead of declaing bankruptcy?

What happens to the people who have the misfortune of becoming ill AFTER the hospital has met it's "quota" or percentage of indigent cases per year? I guess they're just not important enough to receive care? We helped "X" number of people, that's good enough. That's what you are trying to tell me is a better system then what we do here in Canada, and many other places in the world? Help a few unfortunate souls, too bad for the rest...I would expect your bible teaches a different school of thought then that.
Are you trying to get this shifted into another religious thread? I only mentioned a historical fact. It was true in Canada at one time also.

Again, the quota is a minimum with an out if there is simply not enough indigent cases during the year. It's purpose is to insure care for everyone without socialization.


Hey, if health care and should be run for profit, because anything less would be "Freedom restricting socialism" then you should be in favor of abolishing the public school/education system as well, not to mention social security, gov't funded old age pension, etc...

Anything less would be hypocrisy....
My kids were homeschooled. Both scored above the national average on their General Education and Development tests. My eldest scored a 93% on his military ASVAB test and if he had a year of clollege could have gone to officer's school or into nukes.

Social Security is no longer vialble thanks to liberal attitudes of our government. Once they opened those funds up to use by the congress, it's days were numbered ands will be until the government replaces the funds with gold ... I don't trust Obamabucks.

Here's something else for you to chew on:



How is it that if your medical system is so great, it's rated the same as places like Slovenia, Latvia, Tunisia, Russia, Kuwait...And well below countries such as Canada, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Italy, Germany, Israel, Lebanon, etc...

Source: Quality of Life Index 2009

Later.[/QUOTE]

How is it you selected a obviously biased report? Look at the bottom ... it's from Canada. If our system sucks so much, how come everyone comes to the US for ground breaking procedures to be done?

Btw, if you want to know why I'm so agressive, blame yourself for blasting a system you don't live under.

The old adage about how to cook a lobster is to put him in a pot with cold water and slowly bring it to a boil. He'll never try to get out because he doesn't realized he's being cooked.

That's socialism in a nutshell.

Budd
 

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Really? The quota is a MINIMUM requirement. Sure, there are cases of patients dying in ER waiting rooms, but our unbiased (coff,coff), highly accurate (choke,choke) un-political (gag,gag) media never mentions any extenuating circumstances, like the ER is stuffed with drug / alcohol OD's, or because it would fail to support their advocacy of socialised medicine.
You can blame OD's on some of the problems in the hospitals, but what we're discussing here is you're preference, which is a business model (ie. minimum expenditure = maximum profit margins) vs. the system I prefer (Take care of your fellow man, weather he has $10 or $10,000,000.)
A persons financial situation should not dictate weather or not they deserve medical treatment, and/or how much treatment they should receive. Their health requirements should be the deciding factor.

Then your system is NOT a true socialised system.
No, it's what we would call universal healthcare. Poor or rich, we'll give you the best medical attention that we are able to provide.


An answer that I don't want to see? Guess again!

You obviously don't understand free enterprise. If you want to be successful you don't discriminate. How do I know? My first succesful business was at age 14 in 1961. I was making $5/hour when the president of the local bank was making $75 /week ... mowing lawns on the east Colorado prairie.

Since then I had four other businesses, all succesful, but it took them to teach me I prefer to work for others.

Now, that said, you don't know squat about free enterprise, IMHO.
OK, prove me wrong! Go to the gas station, and the restaurant as I said, and tell me truthfully that you receive the same service as paying customers. Do you honestly think that a homeless person will be treated with the same respect as an average CEO at the Hilton hotel? At a Vegas Casino? Of coarse there's discrimination in business. Do busy automotive shops pay the same price for any given parts that the backyard mechanic does? Does the used car lot selling a Chevette for $300 put in the same post sales service as the BMW dealer selling an $80,000 sedan? You know that the rich are treated better then the poor in business transactions. We'd all like to think the little guy gets treated equally, but it's a pipe dream and not reality.

...Business exists for one purpose...profits. Health care that is run as a business is no different.
That might work in a country where the government doles out to the lazy like your country does and the Liberals want this country to do, but, as you said, this isn't Canada. And to be honest, you're making me like your country less.
That reply doesn't even make sense, so, I guess I'll have to let you elaborate before I can reply...

Think about what you are saying...you spent a couple years paying off a surgery. No you didn't pay the entire cost of the bill, but it did cut into your disposable income. Now, how much better could that money have been used if it had been invested into a retirement fund or savings, instead of paying for some American doctors Monogrammed golf ball and club set?
What? Now you're saying the doctor doesn't have a right to a set of golf balls?
Nope. If that's what he wants to do, that's perfectly fine. But it shouldn't be at the expense of a struggling family's ability to make ends meet.

So what's it to you if I have to work after I'm 65? I enjoy activity and would rather be productive than soitting on my fat butt letting the government pay my way ... correction, letting someone that is trying to make a living pay my way
I think if you WANT to work your entire life then that's fine. BUT, there is a big difference between "want to" work and "have to" work. And it's not about the gov't paying your way at all. It's about being able to set yourself up financially so that you take care of yourself after the age of retirement. Just because a person doesn't require employment does not mean that they will be "sitting on their fat butts". Hey, if you want to work you're job until the day you die, that's your business. Me, I'd rather have some savings to enjoy my life when I retire. A decent chunk of my income is put into retirement investments. If for some reason I can't generate income later on in life, I won't require gov't assistance to live. What is your backup plan to get by if for some reason you are unable to work?

What if for whatever reason you did not qualify for that situation that helped you out?
Uh, DUH!!! I would have had insurance.
So what you are telling me is that there are no people in the US that aren't either insured or have gov't assistance? Everybody is covered? I know for a fact this is not the case.


Why do you have to have a car payment? I haven't had one since 1974 when my ex got the 72 Dodge Charger in the divorce and I paid the credit union at work off by refinancing the remainder of the loan.

My current home is a lease / purchase agreement, and my kids are grown, but learned to work for what they wanted at an early age.
You don't "need" to have a car loan or a mortgage.

What I am illustrating is that the majority of Americans DO have a mortgage, a car loan, and some credit card debt. Do you disagree that this is the case?


We care for people first, and profits later in our system.
You are trying to somehow tell me that medical attention run for profit first is better?
Yep, a person that has to prove themselves on every job they do will do a better job
So, how is it that a doctor in any other system doesn't have to "prove" themselves? If a doctor is not doing a good job in this country, he/she will be out of a job, just as they would in the US. But this is less about the doctors then it is about taking care of those who are worse off then you are.

I've met emplyees that came to jobs here in the US from English speaking socialized countries and heard them wonmder why they had to meet higher quality standards.
Well it stands to reason IF that were the case, which I seriously doubt that it is, but assuming you are correct, I would wonder why a worker would have to meet a higher standard requirement to deliver a lower standard of care.

Your surgery was at a cost of $200,000 and you paid only $4,000? So who covered the other $196,000? You criticize our system while benefiting from a variation on the idea our entire system is based on. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me....
Did you not read where I wrote the medical personel and providers voluntarily took a cut in pay / fees to provide the services?
So you're telling me that of the $200,000 that the surgery would normally cost, less then $4,000 goes to hard costs associated with the treatment? Sorry, I'm going to have to call B.S. on that claim.

And what's wrong with taking the responsibility to pay off a debt instead of declaing bankruptcy?
Nothing. You shouldn't have to declare bankruptcy because you became ill or injured. But had you been forced to pay the full bill, how would you manage to take care of it?

Are you trying to get this shifted into another religious thread? I only mentioned a historical fact. It was true in Canada at one time also.
Not at all.
You said:
"As for the social programs, at one time those services were given by the Christian churches without government aid ... and they should be again."

All I am saying is that the Bible you defend so passionately supports taking care of all your brothers and sisters, not just the ones who have something to give in return. But that's more then enough bible talk for this thread.



This chart was made in Canada, but that does not make it any less true then if it was created anywhere else.
What about this one then?
How is it that if your medical system is so great, it's rated the same as places like Slovenia, Latvia, Tunisia, Russia, Kuwait...And well below countries such as Canada, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Italy, Germany, Israel, Lebanon, etc...
Quality of Life Index 2009
How is it you selected a obviously biased report? Look at the bottom ... it's from Canada. If our system sucks so much, how come everyone comes to the US for ground breaking procedures to be done?
The first report was prepared in Canada. Follow the next link and you will find that it is not at all Canadian, but, as I said, It does show how your medical system rates compared to the rest of the world. By unbiased criteria.

Btw, if you want to know why I'm so agressive, blame yourself for blasting a system you don't live under.
It's a system I live next door to, and a system that many of my friends and family members live under. So it is not as if I'm coming into this blindly.

The old adage about how to cook a lobster is to put him in a pot with cold water and slowly bring it to a boil. He'll never try to get out because he doesn't realized he's being cooked.
That's socialism in a nutshell.
Sounds like the motto for the Dept. of Homeland Security to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
In VA a ER cannot turn you away if you walk in its doors insurance or not. They go by most serious person to less serious.

Example if you walk in complaining of chest pains, cant have breath, and can't see straight. then you are ahead of the guy on the list that walks in complaining that there arm hurts with no visible signs of cuts, bruises, or shellwing.

You pay for the service you get, I dont care who you are, if you have a job you can pay a hosiptal bill insurance or not. Even if you just send them a $1 check every month if they cash that check then the can't take you to court and if they try then al you got to say to the jugde is I'm sending them what I can every month. The judge will rule in your favor.

If you walk in with a condition where you die if a surgey aint proformed right away then they have to give it to you weather you are poor or rich. The ER cannot say he aint got any money so we cant give him this surgey.

I rather pay a doctor bill when I need to than pay twice as many taxes every year when I maynot go to the doctor/hosiptal in four or five years.

My .02!
 

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You can blame OD's on some of the problems in the hospitals, but what we're discussing here is you're preference, which is a business model (ie. minimum expenditure = maximum profit margins) vs. the system I prefer (Take care of your fellow man, weather he has $10 or $10,000,000.)
A persons financial situation should not dictate weather or not they deserve medical treatment, and/or how much treatment they should receive. Their health requirements should be the deciding factor.



No, it's what we would call universal healthcare. Poor or rich, we'll give you the best medical attention that we are able to provide.




OK, prove me wrong! Go to the gas station, and the restaurant as I said, and tell me truthfully that you receive the same service as paying customers. Do you honestly think that a homeless person will be treated with the same respect as an average CEO at the Hilton hotel? At a Vegas Casino? Of coarse there's discrimination in business. Do busy automotive shops pay the same price for any given parts that the backyard mechanic does? Does the used car lot selling a Chevette for $300 put in the same post sales service as the BMW dealer selling an $80,000 sedan? You know that the rich are treated better then the poor in business transactions. We'd all like to think the little guy gets treated equally, but it's a pipe dream and not reality.


That reply doesn't even make sense, so, I guess I'll have to let you elaborate before I can reply...



Nope. If that's what he wants to do, that's perfectly fine. But it shouldn't be at the expense of a struggling family's ability to make ends meet.



I think if you WANT to work your entire life then that's fine. BUT, there is a big difference between "want to" work and "have to" work. And it's not about the gov't paying your way at all. It's about being able to set yourself up financially so that you take care of yourself after the age of retirement. Just because a person doesn't require employment does not mean that they will be "sitting on their fat butts". Hey, if you want to work you're job until the day you die, that's your business. Me, I'd rather have some savings to enjoy my life when I retire. A decent chunk of my income is put into retirement investments. If for some reason I can't generate income later on in life, I won't require gov't assistance to live. What is your backup plan to get by if for some reason you are unable to work?



So what you are telling me is that there are no people in the US that aren't either insured or have gov't assistance? Everybody is covered? I know for a fact this is not the case.




You don't "need" to have a car loan or a mortgage.

What I am illustrating is that the majority of Americans DO have a mortgage, a car loan, and some credit card debt. Do you disagree that this is the case?




So, how is it that a doctor in any other system doesn't have to "prove" themselves? If a doctor is not doing a good job in this country, he/she will be out of a job, just as they would in the US. But this is less about the doctors then it is about taking care of those who are worse off then you are.



Well it stands to reason IF that were the case, which I seriously doubt that it is, but assuming you are correct, I would wonder why a worker would have to meet a higher standard requirement to deliver a lower standard of care.



So you're telling me that of the $200,000 that the surgery would normally cost, less then $4,000 goes to hard costs associated with the treatment? Sorry, I'm going to have to call B.S. on that claim.



Nothing. You shouldn't have to declare bankruptcy because you became ill or injured. But had you been forced to pay the full bill, how would you manage to take care of it?



Not at all.
You said:
"As for the social programs, at one time those services were given by the Christian churches without government aid ... and they should be again."

All I am saying is that the Bible you defend so passionately supports taking care of all your brothers and sisters, not just the ones who have something to give in return. But that's more then enough bible talk for this thread.



This chart was made in Canada, but that does not make it any less true then if it was created anywhere else.


What about this one then?




The first report was prepared in Canada. Follow the next link and you will find that it is not at all Canadian, but, as I said, It does show how your medical system rates compared to the rest of the world. By unbiased criteria.



It's a system I live next door to, and a system that many of my friends and family members live under. So it is not as if I'm coming into this blindly.



Sounds like the motto for the Dept. of Homeland Security to me.
No, you really don't understand the system in the US, nor do you understand what the Bible teaches.

And, you have chosen to be too abusive towards the US and it's system of goverment in my opinion, and thusly, it's citizens.

Tell you what, you stay in Canada, I'll stay in the Land of the Free, where I can still choose the lifestyle I
want and not spend all my money to pay taxes to care for some lazy butt.

Btw, did you earn your retirement or are you making some poor slob pay money he could use for neccesities (or a medical bill) so you can waste it on whatever you prefer to waste it on.

Robert Heinlein, the Sci-Fi author had a pet acronym: "TANSTAAFL" "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch". Liberal/socialist governments tell you otherwise.

I'm done.

Budd

P.S. don't look now, Mr Lobster, but the water getting hot in your pot (Canada) and the Liberals are trying to build a fire here in the States.
 

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In VA a ER cannot turn you away if you walk in its doors insurance or not. They go by most serious person to less serious.

Example if you walk in complaining of chest pains, cant have breath, and can't see straight. then you are ahead of the guy on the list that walks in complaining that there arm hurts with no visible signs of cuts, bruises, or shellwing.

You pay for the service you get, I dont care who you are, if you have a job you can pay a hosiptal bill insurance or not. Even if you just send them a $1 check every month if they cash that check then the can't take you to court and if they try then al you got to say to the jugde is I'm sending them what I can every month. The judge will rule in your favor.

If you walk in with a condition where you die if a surgey aint proformed right away then they have to give it to you weather you are poor or rich. The ER cannot say he aint got any money so we cant give him this surgey.

I rather pay a doctor bill when I need to than pay twice as many taxes every year when I maynot go to the doctor/hosiptal in four or five years.

My .02!
:agree: :agree: :agree: :rock: :rock: :rock:

This is true in most of the US as I understand it according to my wife who happened to work as an ER receptionist.

Budd
 
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